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MCLA D2 Poll Week 3-11 March

NycholasNycholas Maryland
edited March 11 in MCLA Division II
1 St. Thomas (24) 2-0 624 1 -
Prev: W Lindenwood-Belleville 17-2 | Next: @ SCAD on 3/21
2 St. Johns (1) 2-0 600 2 -
Prev: W Lindenwood-Belleville 14-8 | Next: Grove City on 3/28
3 Grand Valley State 1-2 535 4 1
Prev: W North Dakota State 9-7 | Next: Northwood on 3/20
4 Grove City 4-1 527 3 1
Prev: W Elon 10-7 | Next: Taylor on 3/15
5 Elon 5-1 474 5 -
Prev: W Emmanuel 9-8 | Next: UNC-Charlotte on 4/5
6 Western Oregon 4-0 470 7 1
Prev: W Western Washington 16-15 | Next: College of Idaho on 3/15
7 Dayton 5-0 446 10 3
Prev: W Carnegie Mellon 24-2 | Next: Kennesaw State on 3/14
8 North Dakota State 3-1 426 8 -
Prev: W Missouri Baptist 19-3 | Next: Dayton on 3/28
9 Florida Gulf Coast 4-1 402 15 6
Prev: W St. Andrews 11-6 | Next: Lindenwood-Belleville on 3/16
10 Indiana Tech 1-1 374 9 1
Prev: W St. Andrews 10-8 | Next: Kennesaw State on 3/15
11 SCAD 5-2 356 12 1
Prev: L Tennessee Wesleyan 7-5 | Next: @ Dayton on 3/20
12 Palm Beach Atlantic 5-3 353 14 2
Prev: W Stonehill 19-11 | Next: St. Andrews on 3/12
13 Cal State Fullerton 4-0 346 11 2
Prev: W Saint Marys 11-7 | Next: UC San Diego on 3/15
14 Concordia 2-4 299 13 1
Prev: W UC San Diego 15-11 | Next: @ Cal St San Marcos on 3/15
15 Kennesaw State 5-0 270 16 1
Prev: W Citadel 11-9 | Next: @ Dayton on 3/14
16 U.S. Coast Guard 0-3 226 6 0
Prev: L St. Andrews 17-12 | Next: Central Connecticut on 3/21
17 Briarcliffe 0-1 177 17 -
Prev: L Army 15-9 | Next: Northeastern on 3/15
18 Gonzaga 3-0 174 18 -
Prev: W Central Washington 13-6 | Next: Washington State on 3/22
19 Tennessee Wesleyan 1-1 142 21 2
Prev: L St. Andrews 9-8 | Next: @ Reinhardt on 3/15
20 Fort Lewis 4-0 130 22 2
Prev: W Metro State 11-4 | Next: Utah State on 3/11
21 DePaul 0-0 117 19 2
Next: @ Missouri Baptist on 3/14
22 Southern Oregon 5-1 115 25 3
Prev: W Portland 13-11 | Next: Central Washington on 3/15
23 Siena Heights 1-0 80 23 -
Prev: W Central Michigan 13-12 | Next: Michigan-Flint on 3/14
24 St. Andrews 2-4 74 -
Prev: W U.S. Coast Guard 17-12 | Next: @ Palm Beach Atlantic on 3/12
25 Missouri Valley 3-0 69 -
Prev: W Wheaton 30-6 | Next: @ Robert Morris (IL) on 3/13


Well, let's talk about it.
Post edited by Nycholas on

Comments

  • Lots of matchups this week between polled teams. This should be a really exciting week for mcla division 2. I personally think that the div 2 is more exciting that div 1 cause there are less teams that are just consistently dominant. (Minus St. John's , st Thomas etc. you know who I'm talking about. It's exciting cause teams lose to teams they shouldn't and there is always at least one big upset a week.

    There are so many matchup this week within ithe top 25 and too many for me to sit down and catalog all of them I will pass that along to someone else with more time. I am a bit biased because I live in Atlanta and follow the SELC and more Div. 2 than D 1 but here are some great match ups all over he country and I can't wait to see it all unfold. I honestly would live to be able to see how Kennesaw State does this week against Dayton and Indiana Tech. KSU has flown under get radar and could blow open the rankings with some big upsets up there in Ohio and Indiana. I'm just glad to see 7 SELC teams getting some love in the polls and should make for some exciting tournament play in Johns Creek this April.
  • @rambler85 I agree about D2 being more exciting because of the unknown outside of the top two or three spots. I sort of feel this is a down week though in terms of competition.

    All eyes should be on Dayton, OH. Personally I think Dayton rolls to two easy victories. I am not yet convinced that ITU or KSU can hang with the Flyers plus I think Dayton has the most favorable schedule playing at home with a day of rest. Kennesaw draws the shortest stick playing both games away with less than a days rest in between so it will be tough for them to pick up a win.

    Outside of that, Palm Beach should hand St. Andrews their fifth loss, Lindenwood is on their way to an 0-6 start and Missouri Valley faces their last GRLC test until the conference playoffs.
  • bsigmund90bsigmund90 Grove City, PA
    I really think Lindenwood will be a factor in the GRLC if their coach can keep them focused. They've played the best schedule and talent by far OOC from the GRLC and I think it will show when they resume league play.
    chriscurtis
  • @cflax26‌ This in brought up in the polls discussion, yet this game has no effect on the polls.
    bsigmund90
  • bsigmund90bsigmund90 Grove City, PA
    What does everyone think of the 3 games over in Dayton Ohio this weekend? Are the Flyers back to form? Anyone know why it took ITU OT to dispatch Kennesaw? Seems like a strange result given the close game played with Dayton.

    With Dayton rolling and Lourdes winning big (but [relatively] untested still) - the CCLA South certainly looks to be a battle come time for conference play.
  • That Dayton second half come back is nuts. Down 9-3 only to come back 10-2 in the second half...That is the sign of a team determined to win.

    I was hoping to learn more about Indiana Tech this weekend than I feel I did. I mean they win in OT in what was a very even match for the full length and then just watch a big time win evaporate. I'm more inclined to move ITU and KSU down the polls but don't think it can be a big shift down if at all given teams behind them.
  • Here is my attempt at a Top 25 Poll for this week.

    #. Team D2 Record [Top 25] Rank Move - Justification (read: pitiful excuses)

    1. St. Thomas 2-0 [1-0] - No change.
    2. St. Johns 2-0 [1-0] - No change.
    3. Dayton 5-0 [3-0] +2 - Good weekend, solid unbeaten slate.
    4. GVSU 1-2 [1-2] -1 - Enter the decay of quality losses.
    5. WOU 5-0 [1-0] -1 - Unbeaten but current resume lacks SOS.
    6. NDSU 3-1 [0-1] - No change.
    7. Grove City 4-1 [3-1] - No change.
    8. Elon 4-1 [2-1] - No change
    9. SCAD 5-2 [2-2] - No change.
    10. FGCU 4-1 [3-1] - No change.
    11. Indiana Tech 2-2 [2-2] +1 - Split weekend but bump up slightly.
    12. PBA 6-2 [3-2] -1- Wasn't convinced by recent margin of victories.
    13. WWU 1-1 [0-1] +1 - Computers love this team, me too.
    14. Concordia 3-0 [0-0] +5 - Clearly not a D1 team but look good in D2.
    15. Fullerton 4-0 [0-0] -2 - Look forward to seeing this team in person.
    16. Gonzaga 3-0 [0-0] +1 -Missing stats from recent game.
    17. Briarcliffe 0-1 [0-1] +3 - Still unknown but benefits from dropping teams.
    18. St. Andrews 2-5 [2-4] -3 - Losses keep coming, wins looking weaker.
    19. Kennesaw 3-2 [0-2] -1 - Still unsure on the Owls.
    20. Coast Guard 0-2 [0-2] +1 - Should win next handful of games easy.
    21. N Colorado 2-2 [0-2] +1 - Bears enter RMLC play as my favorite.
    22. TWC 1-2 [1-1] -6 - Seriously laid an egg against Reinhardt.
    23. SOU 6-1 [0-0] - No change.
    24. Montana State 3-0 [0-0] - No change.
    25. DePaul 2-0 [0-0] - Not my GRLC favorite but good early start.
  • Talked with a KSU dad that was on the trip and KSU actually won the game in OverTime and the goal was called off after the refs find out that the kid running the box let a KSU player release early even tho he counted it down. The refs called it a goal and ended the game and then reversed their call. It was bizzare
  • @rambler85 To clarify the call was reversed. Then ITU was given possession on which they scored right?
  • Yes, from what was explained to me was that Keenesaw was man down going into overtime, kills the penalty, gets another penalty and forces a turnover gets a fast break and as the fast break was happening they score and the player in the box was released out of the box early even tho there was a ref right on the sub box and watched the release and countdown. KSU scores and then they wave it off after the ITU player running the box tells them it was released. So it was either deliberate or something else. Thats at least how they said they felt. KSU was man down 14 times in that game compared to only 2 for ITU. At one point they were 3 man down twice and killed both of those penalties. KSU was the better team and had two opponents that game, the refs and ITU.

    Sounded like a great game to watch but things got really chippy at the end. KSU had the lead the entire game and it sounded as if everytime ksu would score they would be man down like immediately right after. but the man down unit killed most of the penalties. Sure is a shame how it went down but ksu was robbed is how it sounds to me.
  • bsigmund90bsigmund90 Grove City, PA
    Regarding being 3 men down, multiple times - The new rule regarding technical fouls being time serving in a flag down situation really burnt us down in Florida. Wondering if the same thing happened to KSU. Have to be much more conservative now after a flag down, especially with the refs being flag happy after flags down to keep control of the game.
  • Why should Gonzaga be ranked at all? They have 3 wins vs teams that have 0 wins combined. They don't play another D2 team until April. Why should they move up in the poll? There has been talk on this forum about teams being ranked based on last year and the pre-season poll as the wrong thing to do. Maybe they will earn this ranking but rewarding a team w/ a top 20 ranking when they haven't done anything does seem wrong to me.
  • Regarding being 3 men down, multiple times - The new rule regarding technical fouls being time serving in a flag down situation really burnt us down in Florida. Wondering if the same thing happened to KSU. Have to be much more conservative now after a flag down, especially with the refs being flag happy after flags down to keep control of the game.

    Am I unaware of this being a new rule? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation you are describing? Since when are technical fouls not time serving, unless a goal is scored by the offended team? That is the very nature of technical fouls. I also am unaware of a strategy to aggressively seek more flags to stop a flag down situation, maybe I misunderstand there as well?
  • edited March 18

    Why should Gonzaga be ranked at all? They have 3 wins vs teams that have 0 wins combined. They don't play another D2 team until April. Why should they move up in the poll? There has been talk on this forum about teams being ranked based on last year and the pre-season poll as the wrong thing to do. Maybe they will earn this ranking but rewarding a team w/ a top 20 ranking when they haven't done anything does seem wrong to me.

    I'm fine with your logic here, but if applied evenly to all teams you will quickly end up with less than 20 teams in the Top 20...

    There are winless teams currently in the Top 20. Dare we tread down the path of quality losses here to rank teams? It's still early March. Time will set the rankings.
    Post edited by Patton503 on
  • Answers the ?'s w/ ?'s. Do you have a justification for Gonzaga to be ranked in the top #20? Are there other teams in the top 20 w/ only wins vs. teams that combined haven't won a single game?
    Yes we should tread down the path of quality losses, obviously the pollsters do since teams that haven't won a game are in the top 20.
  • Yes we should tread down the path of quality losses, obviously the pollsters do since teams that haven't won a game are in the top 20.

    My only point here is if you will argue that a loss is better than a win, I am lost. We can get lost in semantics around all those other peripheral elements, but you play to win the game.
  • socolax2socolax2 CT's finest
    edited March 18
    @mclalaxfan‌ I will quote myself from the other thread to at least begin to address your issue.

    "I find it highly obtuse, to argue for an 0-2 WWU as a top 15 team with an OT loss to WOU, and then argue for 0-3 Coast Guard to not be on the ranks at all with an OT loss to PBA (I get the post is seething with sarcasm, please understand my observation as such.)

    Anywho, I am a voter, and I did vote for WWU to be in the poll (as you can see at the bottom how they got 52 points.)

    For all of you who would bitch about the poll, let's play a game. We are going to remove all teams from top 25 who do not have a ranked win. Teams with a star have not played anyone who is presently ranked at all yet.

    25. Mo Valley*
    23. Siena Heights*
    22. SOU*
    21. Depaul*
    20. Fort Lewis*
    18. Gonzaga*
    17. Briarcliffe
    16. Coast Guard
    15. Kennesaw St*
    14. Concordia*
    13. Fullerton (what on earth did they do to get to 13?)*
    8. NDSU
    6. WOU*

    Now lets look at the other teams receiving votes who, also have no ranked wins.

    Portland 53
    Western Washington 52
    Sam Houston State 45*
    St. Marys 41
    Montana State 32*
    Northern Colorado 14
    Stonehill 13
    Aquinas 9*
    UNC Charlotte 8*
    Biola 5*
    College of Idaho 4*
    Citadel 3
    Northern Arizona 3
    Emmanuel 1
    Lindenwood Belleville 1

    That leaves us with 12 teams ranked, who have won games against ranked teams, and 1 team with a ranked win, and is not on the poll but receiving votes.

    1. St Thomas (2-0)
    2. St. John's (2-0)
    3. Grand Valley (1-2)
    4. GCC (4-1)
    5. Elon (5-1)
    7. Dayton (5-0)
    9. FGCU (4-1)
    10. ITU (1-1)
    11. SCAD (5-2)
    12. PBA (5-3)
    19. TWC (1-1)
    24. St Andrew's (2-5)

    College of Charleston 14 (3-1)

    I'd say its fairly difficult to gauge who can do what at this point of the season and that we need more "body of work" from everyone before we can make any definitive observations."

    As such, that leaves us trying to figure out where to fit 28-29 teams (that number will shoot up after this weeks slate of games with the likes of Reinhardt and others winning games, the SELC continues to be a hot mess) to fill in 12-13 spots, in addition to the 12-13 teams I have listed above who have ranked wins.

    What I have noticed in my experience in the MCLA, long before I was a voter, is very simply that the coaches value going out and traveling/playing a tough schedule/playing tough games rather than a team who wins a bunch of cupcake games, but there are 1000 ways to skin a cat and you have some combination of 28 guys trying to figure out who the top 25 teams are in the country some of whom who don't get to see any ranked teams play at all this season such as the LSA and WCLL voters who's conference has 0 ranked teams at this point of the season. Its bound to be jumbled at the moment, and each different guy has a different insight into what he believes to be "quality" win and "quality" loss.

    You could make the same argument about WOU, who's opponents combined record is 8-15 and all 8 of those wins are against each other (Pacific Lutheran accounts for 3 of those wins and Puget Sound, Portland State, and Central Washington account for the rest of those wins, also winless teams) yet WOU is ranked 6th. NDSU is ranked 8th and their wins are against MoBap, LUB, and St Olaf.

    @Patton503‌ If there are 3 penalties taking place, if a 4th penalty occurs it will not be served until one of the 3 penalties releases. You can now only have 3 men in the box and can serve no more than 3 penalties at a time. If a player is penalized after the 3rd, he comes off the field and waits to serve his penalty after the earliest penalty releases. That's the only other instance I can think of.
    Post edited by socolax2 on
  • bsigmund90bsigmund90 Grove City, PA
    edited March 18
    Patton503 said:

    Regarding being 3 men down, multiple times - The new rule regarding technical fouls being time serving in a flag down situation really burnt us down in Florida. Wondering if the same thing happened to KSU. Have to be much more conservative now after a flag down, especially with the refs being flag happy after flags down to keep control of the game.

    Am I unaware of this being a new rule? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation you are describing? Since when are technical fouls not time serving, unless a goal is scored by the offended team? That is the very nature of technical fouls. I also am unaware of a strategy to aggressively seek more flags to stop a flag down situation, maybe I misunderstand there as well?
    highlighted in the 2014 rule book - "In such a flag-down situation, once the ball enters the attack area, all technical
    fouls against the defensive team are time-serving." pg 77 "slow whistle technique"

    A1's slashes B1, personal foul, flag down. Team B is operating inside the restraining line, moves the ball to X, where B2 drops the ball. A2 is on B2 for the ground ball and pushes him in the back. A2 picks up the ground ball.

    Maybe my defense has just never been this prone to accruing fouls but to me under pre-2014 rules - this is a loose-ball infraction and it would blow the play dead under the old rules. A1 is off for slashing and possession is awarded to team B.

    My understanding is - under this highlighted clarification - that because this is a technical foul occurring in the attack area after a flag down situation - the foul is time serving. A1 is off for slashing and A2 is off for a loose-ball push. Team A is 2 men down.

    So you have a flag down on team A (slash, offsides, holding with possession all come to mind), team B advances or holds the ball in the attack area, all other technical fouls committed by team A are time serving, regardless of whether they are loose ball infractions.

    I believe under the "old" rules, this loose ball infraction would not be time serving but would result in a change of possession if picked up by team A or a "play on" if picked up by team B. I'm not sure if this is just a situation we've never run into before or if this is a true rule change. I'd also sure like my defense to run through a ground ball instead of accruing extra fouls on the play...

    Regarding more flags - i'm just speaking to referee's nature to be quick to throw another flag once one is down. ala something that borderline is more likely to be called if there's already a foul that occured on the play. "keeping control of the game" comes to mind.
    Post edited by bsigmund90 on
  • socolax2socolax2 CT's finest

    Patton503 said:

    Regarding being 3 men down, multiple times - The new rule regarding technical fouls being time serving in a flag down situation really burnt us down in Florida. Wondering if the same thing happened to KSU. Have to be much more conservative now after a flag down, especially with the refs being flag happy after flags down to keep control of the game.

    Am I unaware of this being a new rule? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation you are describing? Since when are technical fouls not time serving, unless a goal is scored by the offended team? That is the very nature of technical fouls. I also am unaware of a strategy to aggressively seek more flags to stop a flag down situation, maybe I misunderstand there as well?
    highlighted in the 2014 rule book - "In such a flag-down situation, once the ball enters the attack area, all technical
    fouls against the defensive team are time-serving." pg 77 "slow whistle technique"

    A1's slashes B1, personal foul, flag down. Team B is operating inside the restraining line, moves the ball to X, where B2 drops the ball. A2 is on B2 for the ground ball and pushes him in the back. A2 picks up the ground ball.

    Maybe my defense has just never been this prone to accruing fouls but to me under pre-2014 rules - this is a loose-ball infraction and it would blow the play dead under the old rules. A1 is off for slashing and possession is awarded to team B.

    My understanding is - under this highlighted clarification - that because this is a technical foul occurring in the attack area after a flag down situation - the foul is time serving.

    So you have a flag down on team A (slash, offsides, holding with possession all come to mind), team B advances or holds the ball into the attack area, all other technical fouls committed by team A are time serving, regardless of whether they are loose ball infractions.

    I believe under the "old" rules, this loose ball infraction would not be time serving but would result in a change of possession if picked up by team A or a "play on" if picked up by team B. I'm not sure if this is just a situation we've never run into before or if this is a true rule change. I'd also sure like my defense to run through a ground ball instead of accruing extra fouls on the play...

    Regarding more flags - i'm just speaking to referee's nature to be quick to throw another flag once one is down. ala something that borderline is more likely to be called if there's already a foul that occured on the play. "keeping control of the game" comes to mind.
    Oh yeah, that. That killed us, and Coastal Carolina, in our game. The ref said he had never called so many simultaneous fouls or "play on" fouls in his life. If there is a flag down, any play on is thrown as a flag. Coast and SCSU each had like 9 penalties that game as a result. Did not understand that rule at first either.
  • bsigmund90bsigmund90 Grove City, PA
    edited March 18
    Yes - it's made for several multiple-men down penalties on both teams in all the games we have played so far. It's much easier to be multiple men down now.
    Post edited by bsigmund90 on
  • @mclalaxfan To me this just feels like a trolling against Gonzaga but let's take a closer look at teams ranked in the Week 3 Poll. To be fair I agree GU has a weak SOS but that argument to this point, can be made for a lot of teams outside of the SELC and that is probably due mostly to the sheer volume of games played down south. Teams like PBA have played 9 D2 games already which helps them. But let's look closer at ranked teams and their records against D2 teams at or above 0.500. (Ranked highest to lowest based on Win%)

    WOU 3-0
    UD 2-0
    CSUF 1-0
    CUI 1-0
    Fort 1-0
    DePaul 1-0
    NDSU 1-0 (1 loss against team below 0.500)
    GCC 3-1
    Elon 3-1
    SCAD 3-1 (1 loss against team below 0.500)
    FGCU 2-1
    SOU 2-1
    PBA 2-2
    TWC 1-1 (1 loss against team below 0.500)
    GVSU 1-2
    ITU 1-2
    UST 0-0
    SJU 0-0
    GU 0-0
    SHU 0-0
    BC 0-1
    MVC 0-1
    USCG 0-1 (1 loss against team below 0.500)
    KSU 0-2
    SAU 0-5

    To be fair I probably should move the teams with losses to below 0.500 teams down more but the picture should be clear that only 7 teams are undefeated against winning teams. And only WOU and Dayton have multiple wins over a winning team without dropping a game. That probably explains why LaxPower has a computer crush on those two teams.
  • socolax2socolax2 CT's finest
    The worst, Bill, happened to us at Coastal. We had the ball, flag was down. Loose ball situation. Our attackman gets a loose ball push trying to retain possession. Instead of a play on, or killing the play and going to man up, now both teams are man down. Pretty ridiculous, and totally kills advantages for man up. You have to be super careful, even if you are the one with the advantage on a flag down.
  • bsigmund90bsigmund90 Grove City, PA
    socolax2 said:

    The worst, Bill, happened to us at Coastal. We had the ball, flag was down. Loose ball situation. Our attackman gets a loose ball push trying to retain possession. Instead of a play on, or killing the play and going to man up, now both teams are man down. Pretty ridiculous, and totally kills advantages for man up. You have to be super careful, even if you are the one with the advantage on a flag down.

    Sounds like a misinterpretation of the rule by that referee.

    ""In such a flag-down situation, once the ball enters the attack area, all technical
    fouls against the DEFENSIVE team are time-serving."

    As you are still in the attack area i can't see how you are considered the defensive team.
    socolax2
  • I don't know what trolling is but it sounds bad. Is that even a word? It isn't in my Dictionary but granted that is from 1983.
    I have nothing against Gonzaga, don't know anyone on the team, coaches, etc. I was just asking two simple ?'s that no one has answered; #1 Why is Gonzaga ranked? #2- Why should they move up in the polls.
    They started ranked #22 in the preseason poll and have moved up to #17, why? At this rate, come April when they play their next D2 game, they will be ranked in the top 15. I'm just looking for some explanation to this.
    CC you usually have great breakdowns/ justifications such as team lost 41.5% of scoring, 8 new studs on the team, etc. You advocated/ put them up to #16 in your poll. Just trying to learn what I don't know.
  • I don't know what trolling is but it sounds bad. Is that even a word? It isn't in my Dictionary but granted that is from 1983.

    Ba-ZING!

  • @mclalaxfan Sorry about the confusion. I'll try to answer your questions based on my thought process but understand that it could be much different from other coaches actually voting for the poll.

    In my preseason poll I had GU ranked 22nd. They returned 61.1% of their points and while they took a huge hit to their roster size their only big losses were a few highly overrated defenders and a good feeder attackman (who accounted for 25% of their point loss). Then I noticed that they picked up a high school all american goalie that I knew to be very good and two good offensive threats to fill in their midfield and attack holes.

    I don't know how other poll voters try to temper a regional bias when it comes to being familiar with certain team's incoming classes but I try to not say "Oh this team is going to be really good because they have a big or talented incoming class." For one, high school talent doesn't always transfer over and two I can't know every team's incoming class which could skew a team I'm familiar with. So I highlighted a few players to watch and if they performed well I knew that Gonzaga would get good production and so far they have. So honestly, 22nd felt right and I took a wait and see approach.

    So why is Gonzaga ranked? My answer, they are undefeated and have performed exceedingly well to this point. Yes, they have only beaten winless teams but 3-0 is better than 0-1, 2-5, 3-2, 0-2, 2-2, etc. And frankly that is why GU has moved up, not based on their own merit as much as the inability of team's above them to win easy games. Which answers question #2 of yours. Why should they move up? To be honest, they shouldn't but my poll looks pretty empty if I just start erasing teams that pick up losses. Do I think they Gonzaga still has a lot to prove? Yes. Do I expect them to stay where they are in my poll all year? No, if they get trashed by WOU, MSU, WWU etc they will drop. The flip side they get some huge home wins over those same teams they will go up and no one will be too upset about that. This a team already qualified for the playoffs with a back heavy schedule, time will heal all polls.
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